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General - Disney currently sueing Moviegoods

carson User

Written at 30 Jan 2010 on 12:32

Here is the docket: http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-cacdce/case_no-2:2009cv04968/case_id-448705/]Disney vs. Moviegoods

Disney Enterprises is suing Moviegoods.com in federal court for Intellectual Property - Copyrights Infringement. That is, taking images from the internet and attempting to profit from them.

Some of the posters you have up-loaded to your site are images taken from a film poster collection owned by a collector who is an attorney by trade. I've joined to document images MPDB is hosting which are owned by a film producer.

Jayef, Komond, others: you have a lot of work invested in the site and it shows. It's a fun site. I hope you will institute better limitations as to where your images come from and the permitted image resolution lowered.

What you all do in PM and through email with high resolution scans and photos is up to you, however, when payment for "credits" are being received for images created and owned by others you will eventually be sued for infringement beginning with a look into the account holder.

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-cacdce/case_no-2:2009cv04968/case_id-448705/]Disney vs. Moviegoods
Martin Owner

Written at 30 Jan 2010 on 15:47

Thank you for this information. We'll have to talk about it internally I guess.

What I can already say is this: when somebody is the owner of an image he/she can send us a message and we will happily remove that image. Second: our difference with Moviegoods is the attempting to make a profit. With 5 euros for 100 credits, we won't get rich any time soon.

Do you have any other suggestions besides limiting resolution and limiting where images come from? The second is pretty impossible...Do you think it would be possible to have some sort of collaboration with studios?

Martin
Drarakel User

Written at 30 Jan 2010 on 23:51

That's interesting.

Of course we uploaders here don't have rights on the pictures either. But it's one thing looking at the posters from the internet and organizing them here (as a hobby).
Using these posters (sometimes even directly downloaded from MPDB) and selling reprints and making a big profit out of it (Moviegoods) is, well.. a whole other thing. And they even take pictures from DVD covers, book covers, customs, images with watermarks, lobbycards and so on and label them as 'posters' (style xy). Really horrible. Of course that's no news, there are enough posts about that...

Up to now I had to speculate if Moviegoods has real licenses for their posters. Now it really seems they have not (for Disney). And on some Disney posters (also on new ones) there's also something like "must not be used for sale" on it.

So, my conclusion regarding the lawsuit against Moviegoods: That was long overdue. I'm curious what the result will be..

Edit: By the way - it's Disney and also Fox who are suing.
IconMedia User

Written at 23 Jan 2012 on 21:12

As the Imaging Director of MovieGoods, I would like to just state that we are sincerely apologetic to Disney and Fox for unknowingly reselling copyrighted images, as that was never and will never be our intention. In a business that rotates through as many posters in a year as we do, some posters got through that were mis-marked and ended up being printed, when in fact they were a Disney or Fox copyrighted image. We immediately paid the royalties that were due to these companies for these images. We have an agreement and license with Disney, Fox and several others to sell original posters that are provided by them and we are in great standing with all of these companies to date. All of our reproduced posters that we sale, we make sure we have the license to print and sale these items. The printing of the posters for Disney and Fox was a very unfortunate over-sight that has been corrected and will not happen again. In every business if the workflow is not being carefully monitored mistakes can happen, and this was a very unfortunate and embarrassing mistake to have to learn from.

We thank all of our customers for their business and we look forward to many more years of poster distribution.

Sincerely,
MovieGoods
Imaging Director
Drarakel User

Written at 23 Jan 2012 on 22:46

OK.
But that doesn't explain why several users (even me) found 'their' images (as I wrote, that included things like book covers or fan-made images) on Moviegoods after they were uploaded here. Selling these as posters/reprints means fooling the customers big time.
Steinninn User

Written at 11 Feb 2012 on 02:19

IconMedia
Number of posts: 0

This is kind of funny

And he also doesn't sign with his name.
IconMedia User

Written at 23 Feb 2012 on 18:00

At this point we have not been contacted by you to have your work removed, so I apologize that it is mistakenly still on our website. We are undergoing further research to remove all unlicensed images from our website due to a misunderstanding with movieposterdb.com not owning the copyrights to the posters they sell. If you are the original copyright holder to any poster designs that are on our website and we do not have your permission to reproduce and sell these posters, simply contact MovieGoods so that we can have this issue taken care of immediately.

Sincerely,
Imaging Director
MovieGoods
IconMedia User

Written at 23 Feb 2012 on 19:29

@Drarakel - I have gone through the first several pages of posters that you have uploaded to movieposterdb.com and I am not finding any, unless I am mistaken, that are custom designed posters?

I do believe there are some posters that are custom designs on movieposterdb.com from before they did not allow custom designs to be uploaded and we are definitely concerned with making sure we have permission from the original artist to sell these. Any book covers before 1964 are considered public domain and can be printed and sold without copyright infringement.

Please let me know if you have any fan-made designs or book covers that were created after 1964 that are on our website that we can have removed. Some fan-based and custom designs are designed so well that they were mistaken in the past for being legitimate posters, so for that I applaud the designers of them! Thankfully Movieposterdb.com does not allow custom designs any longer so that will resolve the issue of your copyrighted work being sold and we can be more assured that the posters we are selling will be copyrighted through the correct agencies that we have permissions from.

I do not check blogs regularly so feel free to message me directly through movieposterdb.com.


Sincerely,
Imaging Director
MovieGoods
Drarakel User

Written at 11 Apr 2012 on 13:33

If IconMedia is still in the forums:
Um.. There was no need to go through my uploads. Personally, I didn't upload such things (like customs; let alone book covers).

And I never said that I have "work" (own designs) here or that someone has rights on something; quite the contrary (see my original post).
IconMedia User

Written at 17 May 2012 on 19:04

Wonderful. Then you should not have any further fuss about - as I quote from your previous post:

"why several users (even me) found 'their' images (as I wrote, that included things like book covers or fan-made images) on the MovieGood's website" ..considering those are not legally "your" images we absolutely do have the rights to print them and being that we are selling them marked as reproduction, we are not in any way "fooling the customers" as you stated in a previous post. Now not all of our posters come from MoviePosterDB.com by any means. This site is simply a backup for emergency purposes such as if the last original in stock was sold before it was scanned and we do not have a digital copy of the poster. If we have the reproduction rights to print it and the resolution is good enough to pull from this site, then in some cases this website has been a blessing allowing us to continue to offer the poster to the public.

We offer both reproduction posters at regular retail sales prices and we also offer original posters which of course are marked and priced accordingly. Unless the customer for some reason does not understand the difference between reproduction and original there should not be any confusion. There are only a few production companies (Disney, Lionsgate, Universal, Touchstone, Fox) that we only sell the original posters for and we absolutely do not either scan originals for reproduction or accept digital copies of posters for these companies.

We greatly respect movie fans and poster collectors and we are not in the business of selling fakes and trying to pass them off as the originals, as there are many other companies that unfortunately do that such as this GA man that was recently caught: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/04/feds-ga-man-recruit-sell-fake-movie-posters/

I'm glad that we came to this understanding as I have been trying to find any and all fan-based art that we do not have the copyrights to, to have removed from our site and from what I am now understanding it turns out that none of the posters you were even complaining about were copyright issues for us.

Sincerely,
Megan
Imaging Director
MovieGoods.com
Martin Owner

Written at 18 May 2012 on 21:19

I have one thing to add to clear things up: there is not any official (or non-official for that matter) relation between MovieGoods and MoviePosterDB.com other than them being a user of our site. So as far as it concerns us they are a user like any other. Whether or not they print posters and sell them is up to them.
Ardilaun Editor

Written at 24 May 2012 on 12:10

"a misunderstanding with movieposterdb.com not owning the copyrights to the posters they sell"

Folks I think you need to get Megan/IconMedia to clarify her statement - MoviePosterDB does not sell posters - it is a fan hobby site intended for personal, non-commercial use only. If anyone chooses to use images they find on this site for a commercial pupose that is entirely their own liability - This site carries clear terms and conditions.

Megan/IconMedia is also being misleading by suggesting that if MoviePosterDB did own the copyright to the posters that by purchasing/downloading them they transfer those rights allowing MovieGoods to print and offer posters for sale. If I download a movie or a music track there is no transfer of intellectual property rights.

On the subject of T&Cs it may be worth making a copyright warning more prominent on the download pages - maybe boxing it and increasing the size. The key point being that this site is for hobbyists and not for commercial ventures to procure artwork.

The insinuation that MovieposterDB has been complicit in MovieGoods deception of customers is inappropriate and misleading to say the least. I for one voiced my concerns on MovieGoods activities several years ago.
Drarakel User

Written at 26 May 2012 on 00:45

"a misunderstanding with movieposterdb.com not owning the copyrights to the posters they sell"

I did find that IconMedia/MovieGoods statement.. strange, too.
Well, maybe for totally new users, a larger 'copyright warning' could be good. But I would say.. everyone who uses MoviePosterDB on a constant basis should have read that this is not a poster shop / is not a commercial site. It's clearly stated.

And again regarding the MovieGoods statement: Even if it (MPDB) were a shop - why should a shop own the copyrights of the posters?? And even if a shop had the copyrights on some posters: The idea that simply buying a poster (at a shop) gives the buyer some rights / an automatic license for printing - that's ridiculous. (Or was that a misunderstanding, too?)

IconMedia wrote:
"why several users (even me) found 'their' images (as I wrote, that included things like book covers or fan-made images) on the MovieGood's website" ..considering those are not legally "your" images we absolutely do have the rights to print them and being that we are selling them marked as reproduction, we are not in any way "fooling the customers" as you stated in a previous post.
There ARE book covers on your site (post 1964 by the way, but that's not the point at all). And I think that I'm fully entitled to my opinion: Selling these as movie posters - not cool. And it's fooling the customers if it's not marked as book cover.
Of course that's not a big part of your site, and my original point was not just the book cover thing. That was just one example.
But there are quite some images on MovieGoods that never were real posters.

Some of these fan-made images, book covers, etc. came from here (MoviePosterDB); some were just false uploads. So, maybe you want to say, that it was MoviePosterDB's fault in these cases. But it's a difference when external users at a hobby site make such errors (the uploads are monitored by some moderators; but they are also just users who do that in their free time), or when the employees of MovieGoods reproduce those errors and make a profit with those images.

Oh, and, I don't see "marked as reproduction" (if I take you literally). Please correct me if I'm wrong: 'Real' posters are marked with "authentic original item". But the reproductions have no mark (most of them). If it were the other way round, so if every single page with a reproduction/non-original poster WERE marked as reproduction, that WOULD already be an improvement.


Another contradiction - you wrote:
"This site is simply a backup for emergency purposes such as if the last original in stock was sold before it was scanned and we do not have a digital copy of the poster. If we have the reproduction rights to print it and the resolution is good enough to pull from this site, then in some cases this website has been a blessing allowing us to continue to offer the poster to the public."

Well, IF that's the case - how come there are posters offered on your site that never were an "original" in the first place? What was the "original in stock" for fan-art, half-textless posters etc.?

Of course, MovieGoods is not the only shop that uses these 'techniques'. Unfortunately..
Ardilaun Editor

Written at 27 May 2012 on 15:48

Well, maybe for totally new users, a larger 'copyright warning' could be good. But I would say.. everyone who uses MoviePosterDB on a constant basis should have read that this is not a poster shop / is not a commercial site. It's clearly stated.

The point is not if long-time users have read and understood the notice, the point is that it is very prominent so that they can never claim otherwise. it's about safe guarding this site to ensure that it cannot be taken down by another party trying to deflect responsibility as MovieGoods is clearly attempting to do above. The suggestion that MovieGoods assumed they were "buying" rights is a very purposeful statement and not just a strange comment – equally is the statement that the site is a back-up of sorts for a third party commercial venture - it is all the time trying to suggest an affiliation between the two entities.
Drarakel User

Written at 29 May 2012 on 15:01

diarmuid wrote:
it's about safe guarding this site to ensure that it cannot be taken down by another party trying to deflect responsibility
Yeah. I definitely would support that position.
bosnuk User

Written at 10 Jan 2013 on 10:59

This is funny.
But you guys @MPDB DO distribute digital images for profit. It's not really important whether you plan to make a fortune out of it or not. The point is that there is no option to watch your collection for free: you ask either money or 'a favor' for a copy you don't own the rights for.

I don't think this fits well into fair use concept either, see the balancing test checklist: http://copyright.columbia.edu/copyright/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/
Pure User

Written at 10 Jan 2013 on 15:07

bosnuk, your claim is inaccurate in my opinion. Yes, there is an option to see our content for free and won't cost you a cent. Uploading posters for credits is not doing us a "favor" but doing one for yourself. Everybody is complaining when something isn't free but in the end there are server costs to cover. And without putting up all those annoying ads that everyone hates there is no other way to support the site.
bosnuk User

Written at 10 Jan 2013 on 18:16

Hi Pure.
I can see the situation from different perspectives.
As a user I can say it's pretty much square - you get what you share. Absolutely no complaints.
As a poster collector and scanner I feel rather weird when I see stuff I've been scanning and restoring for hours - being sold by someone else. No complaints here as well as I scan it to share for free. Just... feels strange.
From a copyright holder's (which I'm not) point your site is totally vulnerable.

I'd say - stick to annoying ads. At least legally you won't be charging people for the stuff that ain't yours. But that would instantly kill the scheme that helps your site grow. So I guess it's not an option.

Just my thoughts.
Pure User

Written at 10 Jan 2013 on 20:26

Everybody is free to think what they want and we respect that.

You know as well as any copyright holder that once you upload your stuff online and give it away for free, you can't put a leash on it later. Say you've been restoring a scanned poster for 3 hours, you put it online in a place and then someone finds it and uploads it here. They are just taking something they found and putting it here. In this case we can't ask after every single poster nor we need to because you have put it online for the same purpose they put it here - to share.

And the site is not meant to be a cash machine, look at the price of credits. The whole site is meant to be a reference, a big collection of posters for most movies. And I don't think it's vulnerable because we are fully compliant with all copyright infringement requests. That is, if a copyright holder doesn't want their stuff here, we'll remove it. But I don't think it will come to that because, after all, this site helps take promotion of movies even further by displaying the movie's posters. I myself would have never ever taken a look at many movies if it weren't for their poster, which I found here (while approving or otherwise)

Getting publicity online is what companies actually pay for, here they receive it for free. That's the way I see anyway.

All that said, we operate in good faith so no problems should arise from copyrights
IconMedia User

Written at 10 Jul 2013 on 20:31

Ddiarmuid,

You have definitely twisted my words up entirely, so let me clarify. As a poster distribution company we have the permission from production companies to reproduce certain images. You are correct that MoviePosterDB.com allows you to download images for non-commercial use. However, when you have the permission from the production company of that movie to reproduce an image, it does not matter where that image comes from, you can still reproduce it.

To Drarakel and Ddiarmuid:

I am not sure at all where you get the statement "Megan/IconMedia is also being misleading by suggesting that if MoviePosterDB did own the copyright to the posters that by purchasing/downloading them they transfer those rights allowing MovieGoods to print and offer posters for sale. If I download a movie or a music track there is no transfer of intellectual property rights."

I double checked my previous remarks and I am not seeing at at any point and time where I said that we gain the rights to print something simply because MoviePosterDB.com has it on their site. We gain rights to reproduce certain movie posters by dealing directly with production companies, lawyers and a very detailed procedure. Not simply because we say so. If you are going to quote me then please highlight it for me. Otherwise I do not appreciate you trying to mislead people by twisting my words.

MoviePosterDB.com and MovieGoods.com are two completely separate companies with no affiliation whatsoever. MoviePosterDB.com is only a poster resource for us to find images when necessary, just like it is for you. The difference is the permissions that we have obtained from production companies for if we are allowed to reproduce it or not once we download it.

You..do not have permission to resale and reproduce.

We..do.

I hope that clarifies everything.